__NOPUBLISH__ Hello World session Intro : http://visionscarto.net/bxl/ The aim is to make a map with all the countries and then to paint the range of all the nuclear missiles Tools : http://d3js.org http://blockbuilder.org https://bl.ocks.org/ Three axis rotation https://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/4282586 dimendion ranges: latitude: -90, 90 bounded; longitude: 0, 360 circular (goes around forever anf ever) D3 creates SVG graphics, which can be embedded into a webpage Origin is north-west of the page :) - so flipped considering the classical geographic system A straight line on a sphere is called a geodesique Longitude/Latitude -> meridian fight D3.js projections : https://github.com/d3/d3-geo/blob/master/README.md#projections == PG & beyond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text http://postgis.net/ - Pierre Marchand started looking at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text we cannot draw curves why do we do geometry in geography a lot of geographic system is dictated by a consoritum they write a lot of standards you can see that there is a lot of XML it smells like the 90s there is all this culture of making a system that is well documented and extensible that ends up as a mess and we see these three things the maps on the web are based on json you didn't go into geojson it is a completely different way of encoding spatial data it is very simple compared to what we will see now the other component that we can go through it is an implementation of the ogc standard it is a mix of geography and the SQL standard SQL is a way to access databases 90percent of public facing services are backed by this kind of databases for a few years now security has become important on the web there are a lot of problems with security one problem that sites have is SQL injection the things that you write into forms have to be stored in the DB and you can use the form to "inject" commands like remove everything in the DB postGIS is an implementation of SQL/MM it is making requests on a database to address geographic needs let's look at documentation chapter 8 http://postgis.net/docs/manual-2.4/reference.html a successful open source project implementing a relational database is postgreSQL and the implementation is called PostGIS which gives a lot of functions to deal with geometries it is like your regular spreadsheet thing you have columns and rows and you can put things in there that you can call by column name in PostGIS you can add a column that holds geometric shapes meaning you can have geometric operators in the queries everything is converging to this SQL thing it is implemented with Oracle a special extension of a DB product MS SQL server implements it like this, too you have a lot of operations, intersections, reprojections this is how we work with spatial data what is not covered by the SQL thing is that how objects relate to each other let's say you draw two buildings they share something, a common wall it is useful, but it is very difficult to reason about it the idea is that there are extensions to the SQL thing that take this into account? one kind of relationship is that something is on the left or right of something and i think we can play with this and imagine a lot of other relationship if we imagine a shape that is not a wall, which has one side or the other but imagine relationships that are more complex then we can start thinking about relationships in space there is an attempt to deal with temporal things it is currently a kind of failure if you search in Chapter 8, you may have something about temporal support 4 functions you can see where it is coming from: this is about fleet management it comes from industry even though it is open source, the specification and building of standards take a lot of money this is for quick movements like missiles but not the coastline moving slowly chapter 11 is on topology: it is too complex i wanted to play with it i really love it, i ran into this a few years ago the documentation is kind of unusual it references a talk and a couple of slides to figure out what it is http://strk.kbt.io/projects/postgis/Paris2011_TopologyWithPostGIS_2_0.pdf all this vocabulary about graphs and how it is implemented is very nice ido they touch, do they have explicit relationships? there is still this kind of thing as face they implement a graph database on PostGIS but they don't use the same terminology that you find in graph databases my idea is that we can link to the other people working on vocabularies because it is easily connected to graphs you have all the relationships to express subject, predicate, object you can express a lot of things like this is on the left of that, this is on top of this how all of these things can merge in something that we can craft something that maybe can draw i was thinking about all of this super digital technologies and the guy that draws points on a map you were saying that the way jean luc does things is counter intuitive but it is better to find your way on a map this morning you were working on a super global view of the earth it is a bit like charlie chaplin playing with the globe i was looking at what you were doing from time to time this globe spinning you are playing with the globe on the other hand you have something like what jean luc presented commune after commune to get information that is not geographically imprecise it cannot be overlayed on a map that is regular but it was about experiences of the field, they asked people, what is after this road this kind of experience of space does not find a lot of ways to get into our spatial database systems it gets lost what we have is this kind of global information system that is supposed to be interoperable and everything that is supposed to lead us to a global world that is made up of one data structure how to escape this maybe by this other relationship between things not just left and right but another way to express this this is where R-trees come back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-tree this way of indexing a database like this is made to store thousands and millions of records and at some point you need to select based on geometries you don't want to compare all the world to your reference geometry r-tree tries to make boxes where you try to make other boxes that are tiny elements of your database if you want to reach this area, you only get this and this square 'this does not have a unique implementation depending on your implementation you have a different r-tree it changes a lot depending on whether you insert everything at once the visualization shows the different ways of building r-tree we don't see anything valuable, but this one is interesting, it is r-tree is rectangles, but it is m-trees: i am not sure what they are doing nested spherical pages binary trees you try to balance a tree something is on the left or right and you find your path on the tree the r-tree is a non-binary tree i thought it would be appropriate for the transmarcations workshop we can have an experiment to draw it and you can draw rectangles and when you decide to draw something you decide, do i need to divide this rectangle into two or more these are things i would like to work on this graph that i don't understand well yet and how this could fit in this structure and this kind of visualization how everything could be made without computers i think the tools we have to operate these ideas they are so structured around ideas that are not relevant to what we are doing here the needs of theindustry and army we would kind of drift away from where we want to experiment i was trying to play with the graph thing in PostGIS it is so complex that i lost track of what i was trying to do reading the documentation i can maybe do something that is completely wrong that fits my imagination maybe we can see how we can put this whole thing into a comptuer system and see what it spits out to insert some topology into the discussion? lacan: the desire expressed in topology See https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0a/82/39/0a8239f125898c5533ef409258152e95--graf-psychedelic.jpg what is the chain of connection of the data in the database and the pretty interface that we saw with philip in the morning? a lot of geographic data is really expensive to gather with jean-luc, to cover all of belgium was 15 years with a team of 12 or 16people these people were using, they don't, but they value their data a lot the export subset of their data for whatever reason in europe, there are legal reasons to do this the INSPIRE directive requires a lot of administration to share the information that they have got this is a reason why, it is often administration that release this kind of finromation researchers to it a bit you have open street maps for 12 yeras it is very interesting for different aspects they generate a lot of data they do not store it as an sql, but as a graph with nodes and edges it is a mess to process this data with tools from the industry you need it to be structures as a PostGIS table the data that is stored by open steet map is a huge graph it is difficult to process this global file the dump the planetfile they release it, they used to a diff everyday now to compute the planet file takes 8-9 hours they have a problem there so they release it once a week but they have feed where you can follow the changes in real time can you give an example of how it changes for an object to be stored as a graph and relational database i know postgis a little better than open street map it is more complicated let's say you are going to ... not everybody knows what a graph is there was a openstreetmap app that was used in haiti to draw everything that was erased due to the earthquake openstreetmaptracker allowed you to do it it was for large scale? it is gps, so the precision in small space??? it is intresting. i have one of the maps, you load it on the world map to understand what happened there was one dot on a really large scale and i thought it was garbage but when i zoomed in, i thought it was a huge event a fight or something it was a rainy day, i managed to recognize it because of the sounds i record sounds and match them together i cannot geolocalize the sound eventually i realized that it was one day where it was reaining too much and we could not go out of the tent and there are two places i go to the bathroom the tent was very small i think, because it is not precise it is full of things i didn't move that much it was time especially if it is cloudy, you will have your gps jump a lot yes, it was cloudy and it was one of the longest maps that i had done it went really crazy you said what jean luc was making is better for finding your way than google maps? this specific example of going from one place to another the precision was about the precision of directions to do this there was not this idea that there could or should be a mathematical system how this globe is mapping onto this paper you follow this for this amount of time this is a good value for distances as well then you will pass this point of interest an dyou are there there was a relationship between all these indications from the map and the shape to make it consistent that you if you g you can see all these maps of unknown countries in weird shapes which is different now that we have satellite images it doesn't matter, cause it is how these things relate to each other in this local sitaution the relationship has ashape actually you want to describe relationships between things for this people try to reduce it to the shortest form of expression what you want to do is say A -> B A has a relationship to B so you can present it like this (A,B) and if you then say B is related to C, (B,C) and then you say (B,D) it starts to get complicated you can kind of qualify and label the relationship let's label the relatinship as ArB and you have AgB You have a more complex, but maybe I wouldn't say that there are a lot of types of relationships the A is the subject, the second element is the predicate and the last is the Object in a graph you can do a lot of things, you can compute the shortest distance between a thing and another thing if you have constraints on relationships how friend of friend thing works you can nodes, edges (relationships) who defines relationships? you can completely make it up. there are practices and habits, good and less good practices there is a wiki to define that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features i was thinking in relationship to graphs? is it on wikipedia there are acceptable and minority pratices that are repressed self-appointed editing i don't know enough to know that there is repression but surely discussion among the groups that are trying to maintain if you are in a minority some lgbt groups wanted to express toilettes and cruising places with more detail it is called open street map so are you describing, what are you describing the planet, the roads, the streets the animals of the planet, the usage it can kind of contain everything where do you stop and start there is dsicussion but i think it is mostly done by usage for example, really local, i put a personal message on open street map and i asked them to let it live for a while it was a vandalism it is not the idea of open street map to be personal it lasted for a few months in the past it would have been wiped in a few hours or days and you can participate but on wikipedia, it is really horrible there is suppression of minority and dissent in my eexperience in brussels you can discuss with the person who are monitoring the splitting of sudan you have one polygon becoming two polygons the old border is thisline and the new border were these two lines in natural earth a database that you can use for drawing borders this and this point were not mapped well to this border and there was a disconnection between borders when you draw what country is next to which one it is about the same coordinates, but there is a small gap and if you zoom you will see it in pixels if you try to draw the limits of land you get a fake lake coming in because the system sees the whole and something seeps in that was an experience of graphs applied philip: my interest in graphs is making graphs from data points with no connection try to make groups of that, but i don't know what application that may have amelie: interested in mapping something but don't know what jonathan: interested in critical technology studies how the database can be reimagined trying to integrate temporality or more personal graphing strategies and how they can be baked into a data structure would be great rabin: i can also help wherever necessary it was mentioned, i htink words in different langauges with different meanings so i thought of a map that shows what a word means in this area pierre t: i am interested in the fact that there is the world plus places somewhere i want to experiment with a tool for writing on a map something like using the gps coordinates of a city to place text or words we can create a book that we can read but it is not a book but a ma, how do you read this, how can the words be distributed experimenting in reading in 2-d it can be really nice if we know the distance between the point of interest word (connotation) can change depending of the zoom rajwa: i like the idea of doing something with time creating a lot of layers the relationship between the layers the link with the legibility of things if it is layered do we understand more drawing, using different tools and collapsing them trying to translate from drawin with a piece of paper to computer how does the computer under nishat: i am interested in something that is temporal, strentching and how things change samuel: i experiment with pierre on this idea of making a link between text and space, literally writing... i am also interested in the graph stuff emma: same jerome: mapping words or time that would interest me, how you can map time with one coordinate pierre h: time and try to escape the eye fucks the world (Harraway) our sense of the view or sight is so powerful, it fills everything in cartography we present time with layer and to reverse it and have continuity in time and layers somewhere else layers mean separation, if we do it visually translation each time and maybe the graph thing could serve to shift our minds pacome: i don't know what to choose i am the last one i like the graph stuff without computer something that stays analogic Seda: a little description of dynamic conceptions of space FRIDAY WORKING SESSION ----------------------------------------------- There is an annex to mapping tools to do curves ArGIS, then QGIS can do curves why were there no curves? these data structures were not there to produce graphics but to store data structures you know the story about the precise shape of the beach when you try to shape of brittany it is fractal: the closer you look at it, you see more details, at the end it is just straight lines it is not difficult to make a curve from straight lines free fall and direction Hito Steyerl -> In Free Fall http://www.e-flux.com/journal/24/67860/in-free-fall-a-thought-experiment-on-vertical-perspective/ if we think that there is a gravity in both directions the channel la manche you can see that as a force that is so powerful that you have to block if you leave it it flows to be standing there is a struggle how do you get from straight lines to the lesbian curve? you make some decisions there are basic lines two control points to get the parameters fo the curve you have your endpoints and you decide that to have a control point here and there the control points are not visible, something you manipulate it in your graphic library you have another decision for this segment if you want to have something that is more systematic you divide the path there is an inflection https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courbe_de_B%C3%A9zier#/media/File:Bezier_forth_anim.gif whatever package you have you have the two control points you need some control points not to be straight!!! this is why i said you need control points, they determine your curve. orientation to be straight is also being directed towards straightness that means that youa re getting away from something else http://www.e-flux.com/journal/24/67860/in-free-fall-a-thought-experiment-on-vertical-perspective/ not sure what we can do with this are we trying to bend curves or straightlines can you tell more about: sexualizing space it is really abstract she uses deep metaphors, like with orientation pontier/husserl is at a stable point so when somebody enters his office they will be oriented differently she takes sexual orientation to a level of abstraction in phenomenology and philosoph she tries to see how you can bend phenomenology to make it queer at a certain level i don't see how we can use it practically it relates to the topology thing if there is going towards something is leave something else then you have two sides of the line in PostGIS they imagine that there is a left and right side now we see that there is forward and behind we almost have cardinality now!?!?!!! we have to use what is there and find a path with what is there concerning the question of sexual orientation she is talking about question about time and direction when i was reading the GPX file i was bit surprised that there is a record of the positino of the compass for each data point as an object, this compass, there is a north is it straight or not the compass is an object that we can work on i think hito bight bring us top and bottom the excerpts are connected to the question of points and lines "Our life courses follow a certain sequence, which is also a matter of following a direction or of being directed in a certain way (birth, childhood, adolescence, marriage, reproduction, death), as Judith Halberstam has shown us in her reflections on the “temporality” of the family and the expenditure of family time. The concept of orientations allows us to expose how life gets directed through the very requirement that we follow what is already given to us. For a life to count as a good life, it must return the debt of its life by taking on the direction promised as a social good, which means imagining one’s futurity in terms of reaching certain points along a life course. Such points accumulate, creating the impression of a straight line. To follow such a line might be a way to become straight, by not deviating at any point." compass can be a color we can express orientation with a color the abstraction of the hue is 360 degrees/units that is a pure abstraction, it is a wave length but it has been abstracted like that clouds the idea of dissolution the way that clouds can move easily without boundaries but they dissolve at some point it would be a good idea to compare to people in calais who are stuck in a place because of the boundaries and they cannot be free or dissolved because they are humans maybe we can extrapolate a little on that cross the data of the people in calais and the positino of clouds at the same time and the way that people move in the camp and the way that clouds move at the same time and same place i don't know if it is possible to cross this dta, to see what happens then there was also this idea of water partage des eau sharing and splitting drainage divide it is a litle less poetic in english the map of it is beautiful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drainage_divide#/media/File:Europ%C3%A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png what is interesting is that it is a map of flows and it is made of... it is kind of the graph of flows and what is related to the other what is on the left and right it is an orientation fo the water to resist to go to the atlantic if you are here is going difficult this plus the clouds and it can put you on the other side of the divide there is something about clouds helping you to change orientation with the underground reservoirs, the thickness can be 100s of kilometers we talk about this and it is interesting we are talking about a stock of water underground the stocks are also traveling horizontally and they are not consistent between all the different layers if the ground is here, in different layes water may be going in many directions it misses most of the information it is a myth that's why there are ghost rivers because it goes underground and goes 100 kilometers away we have affluent defluent when a river diverges in the delta and sometimes far we have been tricked with static maps that conceal all these dynamics a river is such movement not a boundary but sometimes it can be an obstacle there is vibration in cartography, rivers have variation of thickness at one moment more or less it is a decision you decide that from that line, where the thickness is symbolic it becomes a surface where the thickness is demonstrating the width of it when it is more than 20 meters suddenly it becomes a surface on the map even the limits there are quite blurry what you have with the line as a geographic entity is that you have direction with a surface there is no direction at the conference yesterday we had something about the thickness of borders the fact that the channel and mediterrainean are borders just very wide ones we can imagine another border of the migration drainage divide there are paths in the mediterrainean three main routes used for migration about meteorology the flows of hot and cold air are quite regular there is a pattern all over the year and the streams are moving in a particular way and you can find the regularity there are masses of cold streams in winter it is not that free the flows of air and clouds they follow some routes is it as a line? it goes from left to right west to east and the hot air turns in a certain direction and the cold air in another and it flips when you go to the southern hemisphere the reason of this i don't know it is well known there is a rule physical rule that gives this inscription there is this flow and at some point you can decide to move or flip there is also something that blocks you and then you become a curve does somebody know about fluid mechanics it is when there is this thing where you can work on how cars the blocking in traffic jam when someone stops there is delay you were talking about flows and blockings there was this flow of blood blocked by cells like when you have a stroke they are blocked and you try to flow there was a reclaim the night demonstration there have been some police violence against the women in the demonstration because they entered the unesco zone, which is a place where you canot have demonstration and you have the flow of tourists i was also thinking about flow of people when you see how people are turning around grand place (a pilgrimage) if you enter and you need to go against the flow of people visiting mannequin pis everybody does the same nobody is directing and you go like this the demonstration was countering that there is nothing there i tried to follow this flow between the straight line and the curve we have this straight line and the control points and the two objects that form a curve just to encode this relationship i want to come back to this idea of having an index and relate it to direction the compass can be a large index of how you make curves out of straightline blocking a train could be a way to create a curve and all these directions and ways of changing the world to act on the flows and appropriate them would form a world of options and to navigate this world of options you would have something that is not in degrees but a compass if i start to block a train, in which direction am i going the direction in this space would be the circle and the straight line i want to encode things i need objects to encode the deviation from the flow how it can start to tell something about what we do rather than what we are made to do and flow as a way to empower the flow has such a strength to it standing still, it is like water running and you want to be still in it it is quite difficult what is before and after high frequency trade? i don't want to explore myself we were talking about topology and you were drawing a typology of things i thought that the two could maybe connect what is a flow what is going towrads what taxonomy of clouds it is a wide spread of thing to explain each kind of cloud is it possible to get any kind of flow to fuck it up the trajectory resistance manual these functions are designed for logistics we can see how logistics can be disrupted in a productive way add the paper that explains why there are the four functions here: http://postgis.net/docs/manual-2.4/reference.html#Temporal stick maps: http://thenonist.com/index.php/thenonist/permalink/stick_charts/ answering the question, why do you make a map why would you put a grid over the world knowing the relationship between things from a personal perspective this was the history of cartography time & GIS http://wiki.gis.com/wiki/index.php/Temporal_GIS i am too old to spec!!! what does it mean to spec? specification in the specification of the PostGIS there were functions that were missing that was our starting point anything can be the source of a spec it is a way to formalize that what you want to tell is it like when you try to describe directions to someone? with the same problem naming things, giving direction does the spec have to work? this is the funny thing with you usually have institutional bodies and they specify the way to write specification the name, the organization, the date, the version etc. at the end of the day, a specification is useful for people, a formal way of organizing a field of action or research it depends on who accepts it it is not a norm if we start to say that we have something to express the relationship between time A and time B and there are three actions three words to say a process we put it on the web and say this is the specification and somebody may accept it and take it it is just a document you can apply it to anything we are a body of people and we are entitled to produce specifications femke wrote a piece on that a guy a w3c having to write a spec in front of the blank sheet it is an imaginary internal process on how to write about how to fill objects (how objects are painted) objects and lines Objects and Curves Paths represent the geometry of the outline of an object. Paths represent the geometry of the outline of an object. Paths represent the geometry of the outline of an object. He read the sentence over and over again but could not grasp what exactly bothered him. The document itself was clear and crisp as ever, and the standard it represented could still change the future of the World Wide Web. They had developed a lightweight, scalable vector format, a language for describing two-dimensional graphics. It opened up the kind of applications he had been dreaming of, since the early nineties, and he sometimes felt frustrated that their work wasn't embraced with more enthusiasm. But he had also been around long enough to know that the quality of the standard was not necessarily linked to the speed of its implementation. Paths represent the outline of a shape which can be filled, stroked, used as a clipping path, or any combination of the three. His pencil drifted over the paper. It all came down to objects in the end. It was as if they had betrayed the line. http://snelting.domainepublic.net/texts/pressurereliefscenes_corr.pdf ideas: flows/patterns/something so strong that can drag you along, taking you back to the straight line forward and behind straight and curve compass/GPX data with some data on orientation top and bottom we can express orientation with a (hue) color clouds/meteo: a way to change the orientation/dissolve/contrast pause/stop/rest blockage lines that have direction but surfaces that don't hito: This disorientation is partly due to the loss of a stable horizon. And with the loss of horizon also comes the departure of a stable paradigm of orientation, which has situated concepts of subject and object, of time and space, throughout modernity. In falling, the lines of the horizon shatter, twirl around, and superimpose. ... This transition was already apparent in the nineteenth century in the field of painting. One work in particular expresses the circumstances of this transformation: The Slave Ship (1840), by J. M. W. Turner. The scene in the painting represents a real incident: when the captain of a slave ship discovered that his insurance only covered slaves lost at sea, and not those dying or ill on board, he ordered all dying and sick slaves to be thrown overboard. Turner’s painting captures the moment where the slaves are beginning to go under. In this painting, the horizon line, if distinguishable at all, is tilted, curved, and troubled. The observer has lost his stable position. There are no parallels that could converge at a single vanishing point. The sun, which is at the center of the composition, is multiplied in reflections. The observer is upset, displaced, beside himself at the sight of the slaves, who are not only sinking but have also had their bodies reduced to fragments—their limbs devoured by sharks, mere shapes below the water surface. At the sight of the effects of colonialism and slavery, linear perspective—the central viewpoint, the position of mastery, control, and subjecthood—is abandoned and starts tumbling and tilting, taking with it the idea of space and time as systematic constructions. The idea of a calculable and predictable future shows a murderous side through an insurance that prevents economic loss by inspiring cold-blooded murder. Space dissolves into mayhem on the unstable and treacherous surface of an unpredictable sea. Turner experimented with moving perspectives early on. Legend has it that he had himself tied to the mast of a ship crossing from Dover to Calais, explicitly to watch the horizon change. In 1843 or 1844, he stuck his head out of the window of a moving train for exactly 9 minutes, the result of which was a painting called Rain, Steam, and Speed—The Great Western Railway (1844). In it, linear perspective dissolves into the background. There is no resolution, no vanishing point, and no clear view to any past or future. Again, more interesting is the perspective of the spectator himself, who seems to be dangling in the air on the outer side of the rails of a railroad bridge. There is no clear ground under his assumed position. He might be suspended in the mist, floating over an absent ground. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Slave_Ship what is it mean to see from above and how do you flip? there is no risk of visualizing that there are examples a way to turn is to do the specification in the face/surface/sill mathematics needs to know am i inside or outside of it you are blindfolded, you land on the right of a fence of a huge ranch in the US and you don't know if you are in or outside there are canyons the only way to identify is to put a flag on one side and make a tour and see if the flag is on the same side always direction is indicated cause we need to put islands on it to make a whole reverse fill you reverse the direction there is direction is not sara ahmed direction but maybe yes google maps: the map is from above but if you go to google street view you can look at the sky fro the ground to look at the clouds can elevation be our direction the orientation what if we can go up there is something about elevation being the direction we were talking about the compass wanting to fuck around with it instead of the arrow going vertically, instead of horizontally how do we change the orientation orientation is placing yourself in relationship to other things flatland: when you are born you are a point as a child you are a line if you are girl, you become a triangle if you are a boy, you are a square if you are a priest, you are pentagon minutes of the specification committee beginning: 0:000 we are specifying a world that cannot have a map that is stable to look at we are specifying a new world of flows. what does it mean to look at this world so that we can start describing looking come first? ... the flow of stillness r: how can you perceive flow when you are in it? j: i think you can p: yesterday, i was thinking of creating a map, look at the map, and as much as you zoom it, you see it flow by the natural rotation of the earth you see the globe still from above, and the more you zoom, you look at the moon with binoculars, you zoom to something, you are zooming too much, in fact it is moving to be able to have the same impression in a map to be naturally stable p: a component of the gaze would be the feeling of its motion s: is it a parameter p: it would be the result of it j: it is what it is made off, the feeling of this motion s: with flow, counter flow p: the feeling of motion is a property of the descriptions of the objects we can have in this system/world/spec when you are gazing are we flowing or not when we are looking at flows? vertical_gaze is it composable in_relation_gaze flow_gaze wave_gaze n_gaze gaze(parameter gaze) gaze: vertical, wave, peripheral, sailor gaze gaze you have on a boat, the horizon is not important but the sides http://etherbox.lan:9001/p/spec-flow-wg